Seeing Through The Fog of ADP: Systems and Rankings - SP
I've said this before (and now I'll say it again) - "sleepers" are relative. They lurk in the middle and the end of your draft and they are known and unknown commodities alike.
Looking at starting pitching today, I'm struck by the range where players are being selected and ranked across different systems. It's not that it's just interesting, it's that it can seriously help you. If you're willing to take a player in the 8th round but you don't have to take him until the 13th round, isn't that kind of a "personal sleeper" of sorts?
Allow me to take a step back and explain what the heck it is I'm talking about.
We've been focusing almost exclusively on the results over at Mock Draft Central to help us try and get a thumb on the pulse of where players are going to be drafted. But one of the major problems with mock drafts, and certainly referencing a singular source for mock draft results, is that where a player is selected is intrinsically tied to where they are ranked in that system. The draft can be overwhelming at times, and most managers face that moment of panic where they just can't decide and there's 15 seconds left. There's a darn good chance the player selected is going to at least be in the current queue, right?
Take Madison Bumgarner for instance. Looking at Mock Draft Central, Yahoo, ESPN (rankings), and CBS (rankings), he's a guy you should target either in the 4th, 6th, 7th, or 8th rounds (in no particular order). Helpful for planning purposes, ain't it?
So while you might have been using MDC ADP to target Yu Darvish in the 10th round since he currently has an ADP of 121, you might find your strategy blowing up in your face when you get into the draft room over at Yahoo and notice his rank is 85 (and, in fact, his Yahoo ADP is 82).
It's important to not only know your system, but to understand that people you're playing against might be using other sites for their information and it's entirely possible they have a different concept of value for someone you're targeting.You can use this to your advantage.
Some examples for you (Mock Draft Central ADP, Yahoo ADP, Yahoo Rank, CBS Rank, and Erik Karabel ESPN rank):
| SP | MDC ADP | Y! ADP | Y! Rank | CBS Rank | ESPN Rank |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| David Price | 38.31 | 53 | 51 | 33 | 53 |
| James Shields | 67.07 | 80 | 80 | 35 | 61 |
| Madison Bumgarner | 76.34 | 94 | 88 | 48 | 65 |
| Mat Latos | 71.13 | 112 | 105 | 46 | 87 |
| Johnny Cueto | 114.48 | 154 | 152 | 161 | NA |
| Jeremy Hellickson | 128.7 | 175 | 194 | 162 | NA |
If you're in Yahoo, you could be in for a pleasant surprise when it comes to David Price. MDC and CBS puts him among the elite starting pitchers, but he's not even going to show up in the next 15 ranked players screen in the draft in Yahoo until about the tail end of the third round and he's being selected towards the middle of the fifth overall. You might be of the persuasion (as I am) that you don't take starting pitchers within about the first six or seven rounds, but I believe Ray pointed out a "two ace" draft strategy that worked for him, and grabbing Price in the 5th would be a pretty fantastic start to that approach.
If you want to employ James Shields on your team, don't sign up in CBS as they have him ranked 35th overall whereas Yahoo pegs him as more of a 7th round talent. Shields is certainly a workhorse, but CBS seems to think that he can repeat that 2.82 ERA and 1.04 WHIP, which most prognosticators scoff at. He should be good for 185-190 strikeouts and his ERA ought not climb much above 3.50, but that's simply not good enough for a third round pick in my book. 7th? You bet.
Mat Latos is also ranked ridiculously high in CBS, a system which seems to really overvalue pitching -- and yet, he can be had 6 rounds later in Yahoo's system (or so they say). I'm not high enough on him to pick him in the 4th round, but if Mat Latos is staring at me in the 9th or 10th, you better believe I'll be on board. Yes, he's moving from spacious Petco to a bandbox in Cincinnati, but it's not like he's strictly a flyball pitcher (in fact, he has been more of a ground ball pitcher, which is going to play nicely no matter how hard it is to hit a home run in your home park). It's not likely that he'll see a drop in his ERA or WHIP, but I wouldn't expect them to spike much since the ERA predictors all suggested his ERA was about right when controlling for home run rates, walks, strikeouts, and all the other wonderful things that FIP and xFIP will do for you. He's young, he will likely flirt with 200 strikeouts, and with a better offense behind him, he ought to easily crack double-digit wins. But if your competition is reading CBS, you're probably going to have to overpay.
Lastly, I'll briefly touch on Jeremy Hellickson, who it seems everyone wants to vilify for outperforming his predictors in 2011. First of all -- no, Hellickson wasn't as good as his ERA suggested. And yes, his ERA and WHIP are likely to shoot up a tad based on good old fashioned regression relative to his luck stats (BABIP, HR/FB). But if I'm in Yahoo and he's still on the board in the 14th or 15th round, well, I'm going to feel like I picked someone's pockets. Hellickson has a very good defense behind him and he generated nearly a 10% swinging strike rate in large part due to possessing one of the very best change-ups in baseball, not to mention he has a terrific minor league track record.
These things aren't going to change due to regression, and his if his change-up remains as dominant as it was last year and he maintains the same rate of whiffs, he's going to be successful. My bet is on something around 3.50 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, and if he can give you 200 innings, he'll provide around 170 strikeouts. Poster boy for regression, yes - but in the teen rounds, sign me up for Hellickson.
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Hellickson
Yes, he outperformed his peripherals last year, but let’s not forget that he is a former #1 overall pitching prospect, and in a great system for developing pitchers, and is only entering his second full season in the majors. There is absolutely no reason to believe that his skills won’t improve this year, and continue to do so for some time, so that predicting “regression” based on his peripherals last year could very well just mean that his results remain static as his skills increase this year. I don’t get the backlash against him at all.
low hanging fruit
Everyone loves sabermetrics now.
Nevermind that TB has lead the league in BABIP 4 years in a row or that he’s a flyball pitcher (much like Weaver he should outperform his xFIP) or as you mentioned his stellar swinging strike %.
I can't tell
if these comments are criticisms or not, but just a few notes:
I believe his (Hellickson) strikeout rate will improve, but let’s just be clear – his overall K rate was not good at 15.1%. His strand rate was a staggering 82%, good for second highest in baseball. Most pitchers that can even begin to flirt with strand rates that high are big strikeout pitchers (Lee, Verlander, etc.) which Hellickson is not. You have to assume a guy like Hellickson will be closer to league average down around 72%.
His HR/FB was 8.1%. That’s not terribly low, but that coupled with a .223 BABIP, you have to at least assume they will normalize towards league average. Hey may very well maintain a 9% HR/FB and a .265 BABIP, which would both be well below league average, but that would represent some regression, which should be expected. It has nothing to do with him being a bad pitcher.
And I really have no idea why regression needs to be in quotation marks like it’s something made up.
I like Hellickson. I like him a lot, and I agree that I’m confused why he’s sliding so much in drafts — but you don’t need to drill down very far or be a big saber fan to recognize that he’s likely due for bigger bumps in the road ahead.
Recall that all of us stat nerds were saying the opposite of James Shields headed into 2011 — that he was due some regression due to dumb luck (low strand rate, high BABIP, high HR/FB, solid SwStr%) and would significantly outperform his ugly 2010 counting stats.
It’s not to like or dislike a pitcher to point out that they have been unlucky or fortuitous, it’s just math.
Sorry
I wasn’t clear. I like Hellickson quite a lot, and got the impression from the original article that you do, as well. I put “regression” in quotes because, yes, his peripherals may catch up to him somewhat, but that regression could be easily balanced by his expected improvement in skills, thus his results would not actually reflect a regression, per se.
I was more criticizing the people who are undervaluing him suddenly, simply because his peripherals indicate he might have gotten lucky last year. He put up excellent numbers for a rookie, and even if those numbers were normalized, they would have been very good, especially pitching in the division in which he does. I expect him to be an even better pitcher this year, so even if his luck runs out a bit, he will still put up excellent numbers.
by pooptallica on Feb 23, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
pooptallica
is a username to be truly feared.
I don’t think his ERA is likely to ever be as low as 2011 again, but I do expect him to be way, way more valuable than his current draft slot. His K’s should see an increase this year, and if he continues to develop the two-seamer that was pretty darn good last year, it could increase significantly (7.5 K/9-ish? Maybe 8?). He’s got to keep the league on their toes enough to not constantly prepare for that change-up, which I imagine the Rays are preparing for…
The tampa pitching makes me sick.
by Michael Barr on Feb 23, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed on ERA
2.95 is probably going to be his outlier year. But a career ERA in the mid 3’s is certainly possible barring injury and if he continues to learn how to use the pitches he has. Tampa is probably the best place for him to do that. The way they develop pitching is just unreal; the rest of the league should be doing everything they can to copy it.
by pooptallica on Feb 23, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
No, that certainly wasn't an indictment of your article.
Was more of a commentary on the inverse nature of guys that are “universally” panned when compared to “sleepers”. They keep falling and falling and someone ends up with an amazing value, whereas Brett Lawrie ends up going in the early 3rd round by the end of March.
Hellickson is going in what the 14th round at the earliest based on that chart (I don’t count MDC, too much bias)? I see him going even later in “expert” type leagues (you know, the cash leagues where everyone thinks they’re an expert).
Sign me up.
Yahoo ADP
has major influence on draft round because many managers don’t pre-rank or are absent from live draft. That means waiting on a player past his Yahoo default ADP is very high risk. This is especially the case in last 5 rounds as draft strategies fall apart by then for many managers. If time until my next turn permits, I like to review needs of other managers as i develop my que at end of a draft. If few managers need to “fill a position”, then waiting a few rounds for a desired player can pay off. I rarely draft rookies who are expected to begin year in minors as roster spots are too valuable.

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