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Around SBN: More Televised Winter Baseball, Please

Um...Maybe?

 

Steve (NYC)

Rob, do you think the Sox are putting too many eggs in the UZR basket? They've improved their defense, but from a distance it also looks like they've added mediocre bats to 1/3 of their lineup. Are we really so confident in the relative value of defense to offense that these "WAR" numbers are gospel? I guess we'll find out, but I personally find the Sox a lot less scary than in previous seasons.

Rob Neyer   (12:10 PM)

 

Cameron has been an above-average hitter in each of the last 11 seasons; Beltre has been above average in four of the last six seasons. So, no.

I couldn't have expressed my doubts about the Red Sox off-season any better.  Nor could have Neyer answered him in a way that didn't fit with my personal view of the groupthink surrounding the leading baseball writers on whatever the Red Sox do.

Poll
Who's more biased?
Rob Neyer and others on whatever the Red Sox do.
9 votes
Me against the hosannahs bestowed by those writers on the Red Sox. (Add in the Indians, Mariners and Rays!0
6 votes

15 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 26 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Red Sox

I think the net gain on O with the OF changes is negative. The net gain at SS is positive. The biggest improvement on offense comes from the 2009 trade for Victor Martinez, though.

The chat format gets the blame for Neyer’s answer although citing a 37-year-old’s past performance as justification seems a bit weak. There be risk in dat dere player. His last three AVGs were .250, .243 and .242 with Ks of 156, 142 and 160 respectively.

by faketeams on Jan 6, 2010 9:56 AM EST reply actions  

...

Like pretty much every other league, MLB teams copycat others, especially when they see another team improve. So maybe ask the Tigers? Concentrating on D seemed to turn things in the right direction for them. Detroit turned their attention to D and finished lower pretty much across the board offensively in 2009 vs 2008 yet finished 12 wins better.

by acr on Jan 10, 2010 2:02 PM EST reply actions  

Starting Point

If the Red Sox had fielded a nightmare of a defense, and the 10th fewest runs allowed doesn’t lead to that conclusion, then maybe I could see a swing upward from improving the D. The team won 95 last season. Dramatic swings in Wins come off lower Wins base.

Other than the herd of self-satisfied baseball analysts, I don’t see any defensive metrics that appear reliable. Three years of data to drw a conclusion? What is the average length of a full-time baseball career?

Call me the global climate change denier of defensive metrics, and Neyer and crew the CRU.

by faketeams on Jan 10, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

10th?

I wish I could find their home/road splits and see how they faired on the road. That would seem to be their nemesis- after they get out of that walled up back alley in Boston.

by acr on Jan 10, 2010 11:46 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting copy/paste from ACTA Sports

John Dewan’s Sttat of the Week-

The Red Sox Believe in Defense
January 12, 2010
The Boston Red Sox fell from an estimated 20 Defensive Runs Saved as a team in 2008 to second worst in baseball at 52 Runs Saved last year. This, no doubt, was a key contributing factor for the pitching staff’s increased ERA. Mike Lowell played through a hip injury that turned a previously good defender into an abysmal one, totaling -18 Runs Saved at third. Additionally, young shortstop Jed Lowrie hit the DL early in 2009, forcing Nick Green, Alex Gonzalez, and the defensively-challenged Julio Lugo into the lineup as fill-ins. The team acquired another bat in Victor Martinez, a notoriously bad defensive catcher.
Recognizing their defensive shortcomings, General Manager Theo Epstein has brought in three defensively-minded acquisitions this offseason: Adrian Beltre, Marco Scutaro, and Mike Cameron. Here’s how each performed in 2009 compared to the Red Sox at their respective positions:
Red Sox Offseason Acquisitions
Player Position Runs Saved
Adrian Beltre 3B 22
Red Sox 2009 3B -18
-
- —- —-
Marco Scutaro SS 12
Red Sox 2009 SS -19
- —- —-
Mike Cameron CF 3
Red Sox 2009 CF -10
- —- —-
Total Acquisitions 3B/SS/CF 37
Red Sox 2009 3B/SS/CF -47
Difference 84
Source: Bill James Online
If the new acquisitions manage to repeat their performances from last year, that’s an upgrade of 84 runs on defense alone. Beltre, Scutaro, and Cameron all had defensive seasons consistent with their previous seasons, based on Defensive Runs Saved, so a repeat of 2009 isn’t out of the question.
Additionally, the Red Sox will move centerfielder Jacoby Ellsbury to replace average defender Jason Bay in left field, where Ellsbury’s weak arm can hide and his range will shine. Based on his previous performance at the corner outfield spots, Ellsbury is likely to be a five to ten run defensive improvement over Bay.
Using the rule of thumb that 10 runs equals one win, defense could boost Boston as many as eight or nine wins beyond their 2009 win total. While the Red Sox haven’t signed any big name free agent hitters (though they did add pitcher John Lackey), it is our estimation that improved defense alone will easily more than make up for lost offensive production (primarily the loss of Jason Bay).

by acr on Jan 13, 2010 11:40 AM EST reply actions  

+8 Wins

So the Red Sox could win 103 in 2010 with that line-up? That doesn’t pass the smell test. Mike Cameron’s 3 seems a little too close to negative territory to make me confy.

If the Red Sox do win 103 with that offense, then every defensive wiz will be getting ready to make a seven-figure salary in 2011.

by faketeams on Jan 13, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

So...

Faketeams, is it your belief that defense is overrated? Or do you just think we don’t have accurate or reliable defensive metrics at this point?

by ILLZ on Jan 14, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

My position

Reliable defensive metrics. Nevermind, we do not possess them historically in the slightest.

by faketeams on Jan 14, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Basis

What are you basing that on? Do you feel there are specific faults with all of them? Or are you just generally opposed to the idea that a player’s defensive ability can be quantified by a statistic?

by ILLZ on Jan 16, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

marked out...

I think the marked out (line through) wording was from a negative sign placed before the number 52- it’s not anything more than that

by acr on Jan 13, 2010 11:41 AM EST reply actions  

Basis

The advocates state three years of data are needed to make more conclusive decisions on whether a player is what the stat says he is. Think about the length of a major league career and then ask whether three years of data can be reliably counted upon to exist.

Historically, the defensive data is bound by those games that can be watched and charted. How far back can we go? The more advanced the defensive metric (and the less it relies on fielding percentage, assists and putouts), the less historical games are available.

by faketeams on Jan 16, 2010 8:05 PM EST reply actions  

So are you saying that a defensive rating is more reliable if the player has been in the majors for 3+ seasons? I don’t follow. Layman’s terms?

by ILLZ on Jan 17, 2010 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

A major issue with the hip defensive metrics is they don’t consistently a player being good year in and year out. The advocates say three years of fielding data are needed.

by faketeams on Jan 17, 2010 8:26 AM EST up reply actions  

stats

Out of curiosity do the defensive metrics somehow incorporate “luck” like many of the hitting and pitching metrics do? That’s one variable that turns me off to metric theories altogether.

by acr on Jan 17, 2010 12:53 AM EST reply actions  

Luck

Agree.

BABIP is used by analysts to say a hitter will be better or worse next season based on where his BABIP was relative to .300. A pitcher’s performance will do the same.

So if a batter can’t control whether his batted ball turns into a hit and a pitcher can’t do it, why do we assume fielders can?

by faketeams on Jan 17, 2010 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Disagree somewhat

PItchers BABIP’s are all around .300, and it’s entirely out of their control. Batters, however, establish their own BABIP’s over the course of a career. Derek Jeter’s career BABIP is .362.

And in regards to this:

So if a batter can’t control whether his batted ball turns into a hit and a pitcher can’t do it, why do we assume fielders can?

Fielder’s absolutely can control whether or not a ball drops in for a hit. That’s not negotiable and pretty common sense to me. Perhaps we don’t, at this point in history, have a relaible, accurate way to evaluate defenders, but to say fielders have no control over whether or not a ball drops in for a hit is ridiculous.

by ILLZ on Jan 17, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure...

I am not sure I follow you on this. Maybe fielder A has more range, speed, better hands and a stronger throwing arm than fielder B but how does that have total control of whether a ball in play goes for a hit? Defensive alignment is called from the bench and based on many different variables- game situation, the pitch called, etc. And the batter can counter by deciding to go with the pitch, pull the ball, step in the bucket, drive one up the middle, etc.

If a batter can successfully counter the defensive alignment then it really does not matter who is playing where on defense. I think some hitting metrics claim that where the ball ends up going is out of control of the hitter. But that is where I disagree with these types of metrics.

by acr on Jan 17, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

My basic point was that if fielder A is better than fielder B, and they both play right field for an entire season, then fielder A will undoubtedly allow less base hits to his “territory” than fielder B. Deciding how exactly we determine how good or bad a specific fielder is is the tough part. I interpreted Faketeams post as meaning he felt fielders in general have no influence in BABIP.

As for batter’s ability to hit the ball to specific places or zones, etc., I’m with you. They definitely try to, and are successful at, hitting the ball where they want… sometimes, of course. What metrics claim they don’t?

by ILLZ on Jan 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Not exactly

So how do you know Fielder A is better than Fielder B if you need three seasons of defensive data to make a conclusive decision? Do you simply use the last three seasons? What if the player was good in the 1st two and not the 3rd but overall he is still good? What if he is awful in the previous two but not in the 3rd? is he an awful defender?

The Red Sox are putting their money where their mouth is, but note they team has failed finding SSs. Should we believe their proprietory metrics for evaluting SSs deserve the beneift of the doubt?

by faketeams on Jan 17, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The same can be said

For evaluating a player’s offensive ability. Substitute “hitter” everytime you typed “fielder”.

So how do you know hitter A is better than hitter B if you need three seasons of defensive data to make a conclusive decision? Do you simply use the last three seasons? What if the player was good in the 1st two and not the 3rd but overall he is still good? What if he is awful in the previous two but not in the 3rd? is he an awful hitter?

It’s a fundamental problem with evaluations of any type. I’m not sure what your point is here…

by ILLZ on Jan 19, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Not sure...

..but I am pretty confident the better fielder would not be the one who allows fewer hits but the one who allows fewer hits per opportunity. Pitching staffs, teams faced, home park, etc could all play a fairly major roll in how many opportunities a right fielder has during a season.

But as far as who is the better overall fielder, what happens when fielder A has more range but a weaker arm than fielder B? Player A allows fewer singles but more doubles? Player A allows a runner to advance a base when they tag- especially to 3rd or home? That effects the pitching strategy for the entire next at bat, or even the remainder of the inning. Being a “better fielder” is more than just allowing fewer hits in a hit territory.

The right field comparison is a bit extreme as most right fielders have decent arms. It would be more appropriate to make comparisons of left or center fielders.

by acr on Jan 17, 2010 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Well of course

Of course much more goes into it than just hits allowed. I was simplifying my argument.

by ILLZ on Jan 19, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

The way I see it....

If Bill James deems defensive sabermetrics reliable enough to use professionally (i.e. for his employer, the Red Sox), then I’m willing to concede any doubt I may have. He has far more tools and resources than any of us. He’s not a blogger, he’s not writing for a website, he’s not a low paid FanGraphs employer… he’s Bill Fucking James!

by ILLZ on Jan 17, 2010 12:18 PM EST reply actions  

Bill James

From today’s Boston Globe:

"We haven’t been doing it all our lives. We’ve had pretty good methods now for five or six years. I’ve been doing the [offensive] stuff all my life. I know what’s a normal gap between two seasons [offensively] and what isn’t. I don’t know the same [defensively].’’

In that regard, James is interested to see how the coming season plays out for the Sox.

"What I’m most curious about in 2010 is how much better we’re going to be defensively,’’ he said. "I don’t think anyone questions that we’re going to have a better defensive team. But are we going to be as much better defensively as we want to believe we are, and is that going to have as much impact on [the pitching staff] as we hope it does?’’

The Sox won 95 last season. If they win 92, did it not work? If they win 100, did it?

by faketeams on Jan 17, 2010 8:42 PM EST reply actions  

I'm generally confused at this point

Faketeams, what is your overall argument here?

by ILLZ on Jan 19, 2010 9:27 AM EST reply actions  

OK

I just reread this entire thread. This is a long fanpost for faketeams! That’s good…

Faketeams, if I’m understanding correctly, you believe that defensive metrics are unreliable. Your basis for this argument is that many of them require 3+ years of data to normalize. Is this correct? If so, my ensuing question is, would you be inclined to agree with a defensived metric that had many years of data going into it? To use a relevant example from this original thread, Mike Cameron? Or JD Drew?

Furthermore, if you are unwilling to give any credit to a defensive metric that is only based on one season, or three seasons, or any limited amount of time, are you equally unwilling to use an offensive metric based on the same short time frame?

by ILLZ on Jan 19, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

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